I haven’t been talking about plate discipline. I’ve been talking about their ability to catch up to high velocity fastballs and opining as to the advantage it will give them if fastballs are dialed down.
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It isn’t going to give them an appreciable advantage if a pitcher can command the strike zone. Hitters have become conditioned to hit high-velocity fastballs because that’s what they see all the time now.
If a pitcher can command the edges and keep hitters off balance, they will succeed whether they throw 90-92 or 95 or above. The number of pitchers in the current game that can do that is very low.
The key isn’t how hard you throw, it’s can you command all four quadrants the strike zone for long periods of time. Right now, teams promote and draft pitchers primarily based on velocity, not command. More emphasis needs to be put on command, not high-velocity fastballs and sweeping sliders.
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I lost track of this thread but I have to say that I think Maddux would have his way with today’s hitters. Pitcher and hitter approaches are constantly changing, not necessarily “evolving” and Maddux had such precision control that he could make anyone look like a fool. In addition, he was just smarter than everyone else.
Having said that, there was only one Maddux and I don’t see a way that his approach could be taught the same way as spin rate and velocity.
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Greg Maddux had some of the best command of all time. Expecting anyone to come close to his level of precision is a high bar to clear. However, many pitchers today are getting promoted to the big leagues based on the quality of their stuff, regardless of whether they have any idea how to harness it or not.
I would argue why can’t you teach young pitchers how to hit their catcher’s targets in different parts of the strike zone? Or learn the art of pitch and location sequencing along with changing speeds to throw off a hitters timing?
If you can’t command your stuff as a pitcher, it doesn’t matter whether you throw 90 or 100, you aren’t going to be very successful. Sure, you might get away with some poorly placed pitches at 100 that you wouldn’t if you throw 90, but you will still struggle to consistently get hitters out if you can’t replicate your delivery nor hit your spots.
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Separately, FanGraphs had an article today pointing out that of the 15 pitchers with the highest average velocity over the last 3 years, 10 have had TJS; deGrom, McClanahan, Ohtani, and potentially now Strider have had 2.
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I don’t necessarily agree with this. Control problems still keep a guy in the minors. And quality stuff isn’t worth much without command in a league where the fastest fastballs still get hammered.
What evidence do you have that these things aren’t taught now–or are taught appreciably differently from how they once were? I ask in all honesty. I don’t have any kids.
No one is arguing otherwise, except seemingly yourself, by suggesting that command and control are devalued and uncoached.
It seems to me that, throughout my lifetime, control, command and stuff have all been more or less in balance. You had exceptional cases like Maddux who was a superstar with subpar velocity, and you had superstars like Martinez and Clemens who had both (but, in the latter case, whose improving command offset his loss of velocity as he aged) and you had pitchers with abundant stuff who became superstars when they acquired command (Unit), but the great mass of pitchers had a decent mix of everything. The great mass of guys was Scott Elarton. He had middling command, maybe a good hook, and a fastball that could bump 95, but that lived 93.
I suppose batters are so good at hitting high velocity fastballs today for the same reason that pitchers are so good at throwing them, which is that it’s what they’ve grown up doing, and that, if a youth movement away from abusive velocity were actually to gain steam, the resulting crop of hitters wouldn’t be as quick as what we’re seeing now, and therefore equilibrium is maintained…
If velocity and effort are linked to injury, though, then almost certainly the trend we’ll see pick up steam in coming years will be the reduction of fastballs in favor of breaking stuff.
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That’s basically how I feel about all this. The Madduxes of the world would dominate today, as they would in any era. The Elartons of the world would be lucky to crack AAA.
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Congrats to Blanco, AL Player of the Week
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Extreme control problems will keep a pitcher in the minors. However, there are plenty of pitchers with mediocre at best command across pitching-poor MLB organizations that get promoted to the big leagues out of necessity if they have the requisite stuff, even if the team knows their command is ideally not where they would like it to be. Not every organization is well run and good at developing pitchers like the Astros under Strom, Miller and Murphy. Some teams don’t have a plethora of average to above-average MLB-caliber arms, so some pitchers get called up before they are really ready. Injuries also sometimes force pitchers to be called up before a team would otherwise do so.
Where did I say they weren’t being taught. In my response to @WVASTRO, I stated these skills can absolutely still be taught to young pitchers. I can tell you they were being taught by my high school’s pitching coach as of 20-25 years ago.
I never once said command and control are not coached at lower levels. However, command has been devalued in today’s game at the expense of velocity and maximizing spin rates. That’s just reality. A high school or high school pitcher likely doesn’t even register on draft boards in today’s game if teams don’t think he can touch 94/95 or above once his body is fully matured. The only exception to that rule is the young pitcher with plus command and pitch sequencing beyond their years. Teams feel command can be taught, velocity can’t.
My argument is that pitchers don’t have to throw high 90s to succeed in MLB if we recalibrate our thinking to not make velocity and maximum spin rates the two most desirable qualities in pitchers. But, that is a systematic change that has to start when pitchers are young and long before they are drafted by an MLB franchise.
There are always pitchers in every generation that possess elite command and stuff, some that have elite stuff and mediocre to poor command and others with elite command and below average stuff. That’s true. Never said otherwise.
An increase of throwing more breaking balls other than changeups is not the answer. Throwing sliders or sweepers puts more torque and stress on a pitcher’s elbow and shoulder than does throwing a fastball or changeup. Especially when you use the motion at max effort for a lot of pitches every start or relief appearance. This is why kids are taught to only throw fastballs and changeups when they are in Little League or comparable levels. Coaches don’t typically start teaching them to throw sliders until their arms are more fully developed.
The problem is a combination of using a maximum effort delivery every pitch regardless of the pitch being thrown along with the torque and stress such a delivery places on a pitcher’s shoulder and elbow ligament over a long period of time. Throwing a baseball is an unnatural motion that puts a lot of stress on your shoulder and arm. Doing so with far more torque and speed every pitch thrown stresses the elbow and shoulder ligaments faster. Think about the torque and stress it puts on a pitchers’ elbow and shoulder to throw one high-90s sweeper or slider that some pitchers use in today’s game. And, they do it multiple times every appearance.
Also, young pitchers are often times pitching year round and putting way too much stress on their arms, shoulders and elbows.
I think you and I are talking in the same room without actually having a conversation.
I’ll talk to you later.
Noe? Is that you??
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First draft of a dissertation
I skimmed through it assuming it was the summary notes.
https://twitter.com/AriA1exander/status/1777087162296492141
This is a four minute video of JV’s thoughts about arm injuries, but my biggest takeaway was him talking about how he had to change his approach when the league changed the ball in 2016; he couldn’t pitch for bad contact any more, he had to go for swing and miss, because even bad contact could leave the park.
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Fascinating. Great perspective! Thanks for posting.
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If that isn’t competence porn then I don’t know what is. I could’ve listened to another hour of it.
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You should trademark “Competence Porn” and put it on a t-shirt.
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Feds say Ohtani’s interpreter actually stole over $16M